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Bruce Lee : The Divine Wind
Interviews \ Joe Lewis
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DW Forum Is there a particular person whose insight and understanding of combat you ire more than others"...I personally believe it is crap. I mean how could anybody test speed of punches without todays fast cameras and all that stuff?I'm told my wing chun instructor punches seven hits on a second (in the air of course).Have you heard of it? I guess it's a proof of a quickness....maybe Bruce talked about it? Joe Lewis Please, drop all the stuff you've heard. Martial arts is full of nonsense. Only believe what you have seen or can prove. Show me more than three real punches in a second and I will kiss your butt. ON film, Ali's jab took 7 frames to complete, and Sugar Ray's took 9 frames. A second of film takes 24 frames. Simple math guys. Three real punches per second and that is it. Less talk and more proof. Let's get in the ring and show off some of these secrets. They pay millions of dollars. That beats eating rice all your life and teaching martial arts forever anytime?
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Bruce Lee : The Divine Wind DW Forum Can you tell a bit us of your training days with Bruce Lee & Bob Wall". What was it that changed your mind and become one of Bruce's students? Why were your classes private, and were Chuck Norris, or Mike Stone taught privatly also? Joe Lewis Bruce told me he did not care about competing. He had no interest in it, and he said he felt there was nothing to gain by him doing so. Little guys, in my opinion, have always been the best trainers. This is because tactically very early in their careers they figure out how to conquer larger opponents. Mike Stone, who I respect, convinced me to study with Bruce. Martial arts does not have a long history as does boxing. Bruce Lee was a wealth of knowledge. No one knew what he had. Bruce Lee was proud to be the instructor of three world champions, Norris, Stone, and myself. With private lessons, he could customize each lesson to fit and compliment the attributes of the individual. I teach this way also. DW Forum How do you end a fight with multiple opponents in a very quick and efficient way?? (4 or 5 Opponents). And Who is your hero? or a role model?
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Bruce Lee : The Divine Wind Joe Lewis Against multiple opponents, you only fight one at a time. You respond to the closest first and maneuver so that the opponent you are working against is always between you and the next nearest attacker. I have no martial arts heroes. I'm attracted to scientists in the intellectual arena. Abstract thinkers, not physical types, have always appealed to me most. Bruce Lee was an abstract thinker. That's why I liked him, not because of his techniques. DW Forum Have you ever considered putting out a Bio of you life during your tournament days. A book about your start in the martial arts right up to when you became World Kick Boxing champion. I for one like these sort of books and think it would make a good book. Are you still involved in anyway with the UFC, I a couple of years ago, maybe it was longer, you interviewed fighters after their matches; what is your opinion of these tournaments today" Wallace? Are many of your fights on film or will there be in the future? I think I heard somewhere that Bruce had film of you competing, if so, do you know where that film is? Joe Lewis My exhibition bout with Leon Spinks was a fiasco. His manager asked me not to throw any leg kicks, and while we were in the dressing room before the bout, they approached me asked me to take a dive and pretend Leon Spinks knocked me out. That just showed me again how crooked boxing is. Of course, I said, “no.” Then just before the bell, Leon’s manager walked over to me and asked me not to throw any head kicks, and I said, “Why don’t you just put handcuffs on me and let him beat the hell out of me?” Against “Superfoot,” the Nevada Athletic Commissioner told me two different times before I got in the ring that if I started hitting hard he would personally step in the ring and stop the bout. Against someone who is fast as Bill Wallace, how do you hold back your power while at the same time being able to match his speed? It is impossible. Again, I felt handcuffed. Exhibition or demonstration bouts are a “farce.” It’s too easy for someone to set you up. I’ve seen it happen many times. DW Forum Can you tell the forum what exactly happened the time you demonstrated Martial Arts on Muhammad Ali?
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Bruce Lee : The Divine Wind Joe Lewis Muhammad Ali was getting ready to fight the wrestler, Inoki, from Japan. He was at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles doing a press conference in the boxing ring. I simply asked him what he would do if a wrestler did a fake punch at his head and shot for his leg to take him to the ground. He told me to step in the ring and demonstrate. The press pushed me between the ropes, and I found myself face to face with Ali. We were both in street clothes, and he had his hands up shuffling side to side using lateral footwork movements against me. I did a shoulder fake, which he reacted to, and shot for his leg. The instance I hooked his leg, I froze. I was too embarrassed to dump him on his butt. He bent forward and wrapped his arms around my waist, and I heard everybody in the place laugh. I picked him up, did a fireman’s carry takedown, dumping him on his back, and pinned him on the mat. Everybody grabbed me and pulled me off quickly. I jumped up, telling everybody we were just playing. Ali stood up next to me and put his arm around my shoulder. At the time, I was only about 180 pounds because I was pursuing acting not fighting, and my weight was really down. Ali’s first comment to me was, “You lifted weights when you were younger, didn’t you?” I’m sure he could tell I was extremely strong and hard as a brick. Then we did the same movement again, and I pinned him again a second time in a row. That’s when he showed me how he was going to fight Inoki with his back constantly against the ropes. DW Forum In your brief film career, what movie are you most proud of and if you had total control over a project to star in, who would you cast and why? Joe Lewis I am not really proud of any of my films. I never had a script or a director I could work with. They were all action directors and knew nothing about working with actors. I would like to work in a project with someone like Robert De Niro or Jack Nicholson where I would play someone close to him, such as a brother. I would prefer never to do martial art movies. In the beginning, my acting coaches told me to never do martial art movies. That was one of the reasons I turned Bruce Lee down. DW Forum You worked on 'The Silent Flute' or 'Circle of Iron' with David Carradine; had Bruce lived would you have worked with him on 'The Silent Flute' movie, or let's say 'Game of Death' if he asked you again? Joe Lewis I am not sure what part I would have played in either of these movies had Bruce Lee asked me to work with him. In retrospect, I would be a fool not to. DW Forum The first time you met Bruce in late 1966 in a parking lot outside of Black Belt magazine, Bruce spent about 30minutes showing you a number of weaknesses in the traditional karate styles and why his system was superior. What exactly did Bruce say and why didn't that convince you to start working with him. Why did you consider only after talking to Mike Stone in 1967 to Lee, what did Mike Stone say that Bruce didn't to convince you? Joe Lewis This is actually a good story. Both Mike Stone and I talk about this in the book. Mike’s chapter is a real eye opener. Mike was a fighter and I respected his opinion. DW Forum There is new film all the time popping up for sale of Bruce Lee's backyard workouts. Did Bruce ever film any of your lessons with him"would eat it up.” Did Bruce teach you any ground fighting, or was he more into it later on in his life? Joe Lewis I began my training in weightlifting and wrestling as a teenager. I have always felt grappling and weight training provides the best foundation for a fighter. Bruce Lee and I did not do any ground fighting when I was working with him. I think all martial artists today should practice ground maneuvers, such as how to shoot for the legs, a couple of good rear chokes and front chokes, maybe a triangle choke, and sitout arm bar, and a good standing arm bar. Most of that standing wrist flexing and finger locking stuff does not work in a real situation. DW Forum You stated before, that you thought that the UFC and other tournaments like that, when they first started, actually pushed the martial arts back about 50 yrs; do you still think that today, or has it improved in the last 4, or 5 yrs? Joe Lewis I never stated that any of the mixed martial arts events pushed martial arts back 50 years. Initially, the UFC events were set up as a challenge to other martial arts styles. I do not play the challenge game. I feel it is very low class. I have never personally made a challenge towards
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Bruce Lee : The Divine Wind someone or accepted a challenge. It sends the wrong message in martial arts. People who challenge others seem to me to be insecure about their accomplishments or how others perceive their stature as a martial artist. The fighters who have learned to punch more effectively have sured the mixed martial arts fighters who only have grappling skills. When the day comes that the top fighters can kick as well as punch, together with excellent grappling skills, that will be the birth of a great sport. DW Forum You met Dan Inosanto for the first time ever and did an interview with him for your new book; what was your impression of him before the interview and what was your impression after? Joe Lewis Before I met Danny, I had known his daughter, Diana, and her husband for a number of years. Contrary to the rumors I had heard, Diana told me that her father had great respect for me. I found him to be very sociable, charming, and talkative. It was an extremely pleasant first meeting. I think the two of us hit it off like two old kids who had grown up together. He added a great deal to the insight and credibility to the book. Many of his statements about his training with Bruce Lee were identical to those I had made about Bruce over the past 30years. In particular was the fact that both Danny and I stated that Bruce Lee was constantly changing his definition of Jeet Kune Do and the correct application of its respected combat drills. Many of these are illustrated in the book. DW Forum Do you think that Bruce Lee was gradually going to phase out trapping, wing chung, in Jeet Kune and incorporate more Kickboxing? Joe Lewis No doubt, Bruce Lee was phasing out much of the trapping from his Wing Chung training. He was incorporating a lot from kickboxing at the time I was working with him. One example was when he threw his round kick. He was teaching people how to roll the hip into the kick before you release the knee extension at . Another example was that instead of kicking with your toes or the ball of your foot on the round kick, he began teaching making with the anklebone and the lower part of the shin. He was also starting to add more in and out type engaging drills. The old Wing Chung practitioners would penetrate their opponent’s defensive perimeter, engage with a combination but neglect to pull out or disengage at the end. Bruce was correcting this tactical oversight. DW Forum In your great fighting career, what was your greatest moment in the ring? Joe Lewis I had no great moments in the ring. I never enjoyed beating up another person. My greatest moment in martial arts was the day they promoted me to black belt in Okinawa. That was 40years ago. DW Forum During your tournament days you were known for your power, speed and finesse as a fighter, but you also didn't drink alcohol, coffee, tea, or smoke cigarettes, do you still practice these good habits? Joe Lewis I still practice my cleanliving habits today at age 60. I will compare my body against any 25yearold fighter today. I drink tea, but I never liked the taste of alcohol or coffee, and I cannot stand cigarette smoke. DW Forum Tom Bleeker wrote a book on Bruce Lee and said in it that Bruce Lee used steroids and I also read that he used drugs; during your time with Bruce, did you witness any of this, if so was it once, twice, or not at all? Joe Lewis I do not know anything about Tom Bleeker, nor have I ever met him. As far as Bruce Lee using steroids, I don’t think it is anyone’s business. Steroids make fighters shortwinded, and only a fool would take them unless you need to gain weight quickly for some professional purpose. The church; the state; or any of his peers did not own Bruce Lee’s body. His body was his property and his only. Therefore, it is no one’s business what he chose to put in his body. I wish everyone would respect this philosophical principle. DW Forum Have you been in any knock down drag out street fights? If so, what was your toughest fight outside the ring (if any)? Please explain in detail. Joe Lewis I have followed two rules all my life. I do not drink, and I do not hang out with other guys. Why hang out with men when you can hang out with women? If you follow these two simple rules, life is not only a hell of a lot more fun but it is impossible to get into street fights. Street fighting is for two people: kids and/or hoodlums who have no respect for the principles of being a responsible martial artist. Street fighters have two counts against them: 1) They try to solve problems by force, and 2) indirectly they’re teaching others that they condone violence. I fully reject this premise. DW Forum Do you feel that as time goes by you are a better fighter (meaning in the street not tournament competition) today then you were in your prime? Or is just a matter of adjustments, as you grow older? Joe Lewis I have never thought of myself as being a better street fighter in any respect. I know more today about how to avoid that kind of nonsense. I have nothing to prove by getting into a street altercation. As was 30to 40years ago, if push comes to shove, my favorite move has always been to spin my opponent into a rear choke. That way, no one gets hurt, and when the cops come, there are no bruises or blood. Street fighters keep their records down at the local police department. I want my fight records to remain where they belong — only in the record books. DW Forum Today there's definitely a huge misunderstanding of what JKD actually was, would it would be fair to say that the basic aim of JKD was merely to become a natural martial artist rather
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Bruce Lee : The Divine Wind than a mechanical one? Joe Lewis The best way to answer this question is to ask the serious thinking martial artists to not only read my book but to study and to use it as a research manual. Many black belts from around the country who have already received their personal issue tell me that they carry it with them always as a manual. In one of the chapters in the book, I discuss Bruce Lee’s obsession with teaching martial artists how to avoid this trap of duality. As in acting or any artistic endeavor, be it combat or a musician playing an instrument, one’s execution of his craft must always be in perfect unison between his technique and his current emotional state. I explained in the book how this process could be learned and executed. It is one of the keys to understanding the core of the premise of Jeet Kune Do philosophy. DW Forum 60years from now, when people mention the name Joe Lewis, how would you want to be ed? Joe Lewis I have seriously never given this question any thought. To dignify my efforts and to be able to have been known to live with dignity would be my greatest attribute. I feel that few of us martial artists have ever accomplished that. I have never stated in public that I have beaten anyone by name. I have never misrepresented my real rank nor have I ever claimed to win a title that I had not. Although I failed my first green belt test in Okinawa, a year later, when I was handed a seconddegree black belt certificate, I refused to accept it. I am the only martial artist in North America that I know of who has not only trained in every country from Korea southward all the way to Australia, but I am perhaps the only one who received the last rights from the same master priest in Tokyo who istered the last rights to the Kamikaze pilots during World War II. I have tried to make the standard and the status for that which a black belt stands to always represent a very noble and worthy accomplishment. I wish others would respect and follow this same rule. I do not expect more than a handful of martial artists to ever be able to duplicate my examples. However, I trust that some will be able to live in the light of dignity, which I have described above. DW Forum Thanks again Joe for doing this interview with us. Joe Lewis Your very welcome.
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